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January 6

Establishments in Hejaz

Propose ~~renaming~~ merging Category:1916 establishments in Hejaz to ~~Category:1916 establishments in Saudi Arabia~~ Category:1916 establishments in Asia, Category:20th-century establishments in the Arabian Peninsula and Category:Kingdom of Hejaz
Propose ~~renaming~~ deleting Category:1916 in Hejaz ~~to Category:1916 in Saudi Arabia~~
Propose deleting Category:20th century in Hejaz
Propose ~~deleting~~ renaming Category:20th-century establishments in Hejaz to Category:20th-century establishments in the Arabian Peninsula
Propose deleting Category:Years of the 20th century in Hejaz
Propose deleting Category:1910s in Hejaz
Propose deleting Category:1910s establishments in Hejaz
Propose deleting Category:Establishments in Hejaz by decade
Propose deleting Category:Establishments in Hejaz by year
Propose deleting Category:Establishments in Hejaz by century
Propose deleting Category:Establishments in Hejaz

Nominator's rationale: The 1916 category for Hejaz riyal is the only page categorised in this hierarchy. Saudi Arabia strictly began in 1925 but 4 other pages are categorised in Category: Establishments in Saudi Arabia by year before that date, and it will be more useful for navigation to categorise this one likewise. The Hejaz riyal was the start of the Saudi riyal anyway. – Fayenatic London 22:27, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would prefer merging to Category:1916 establishments in Asia and to Category:Kingdom of Hejaz and merge the oldest Saudi categories to years in Asia as well, in order to avoid anachronisms (and also to avoid very poorly populated categories). Marcocapelle (talk) 07:18, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough – that would match many precedents. There is a C18 category in Category:Establishments in the Arabian Peninsula so let's also rename/merge to Category:20th-century establishments in the Arabian Peninsula. – Fayenatic London 09:13, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See also Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_January_7#Saudi_Arabia_before_1925. – Fayenatic London 09:39, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support, thank you for the revision. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:34, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:1940s assassinated French politicians

Propose splitting Category:1940s assassinated French politicians to Category:20th-century assassinated French politicians and Category:1940s assassinated politicians

Nominator's rationale: We really don't need to diffuse at the intersection of decade, nationality, occupation, and manner of death. I have said that I preferred diffusing by nationality than continent, using this page as an example. However, I don't think we should be diffusing by continent at all. And what I meant was that IF the choice was between continent and nationality (and I had to pick one) Mason (talk) 19:47, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dual merge, fortunately too few 20th-century French politicians were assassinated to make a split by decade worthwhile. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:19, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Dual merge. Although the 1940s were a flourishing era for assassinating politicians, the century category should suffice. Place Clichy (talk) 00:15, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:LGBT people by identity and occupation

Propose merging Category:LGBT people by identity and occupation to Category:LGBT people by occupation
Propose merging Category:LGBT people by sexual orientation and occupation to Category:LGBT people by occupation

Nominator's rationale: This follows from the recent merge of Category:LGBT people by gender identity and occupation into Category:LGBT people by occupation. See also the recent merge of Category:LGBT people by sexual orientation and nationality into Category:LGBT people by nationality. These merges remove the intervening "by identity", "by sexual orientation", and "by gender identity" category levels, so that all LGBTQ+ identity-based subcats are more directly accessible to the reader (grouped together under a sort key, as in the "by nationality" cat). Currently, in Category:LGBT people by occupation, the trans and NB subcats are in the main category, the queer and intersex subcats are in the "by identity" subcat, and bisexual, gay, lesbian, and pansexual are yet another level down in "by sexual orientation".Trystan (talk) 19:09, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge, this will result in far more intuitive navigation. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:21, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Merge. This is a helpful improvement for navigation. Place Clichy (talk) 00:16, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Sri Lankan political philosophy

Propose merging Category:Sri Lankan political philosophy to Category:Political history of Sri Lanka

Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. There's only one category in here, which is unhelpful for navigation Mason (talk) 19:08, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just delete, the one subcategory is already in the tree of the target via Category:Political movements in Sri Lanka. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:24, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per Marcocapelle. Place Clichy (talk) 00:17, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Philosophy of mind images

Propose merging Category:Philosophy of mind images to Category:Philosophy images

Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. There's only one category in here which is unhelpful for navigation Mason (talk) 19:06, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:26, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Works about philosophy of physics

Propose splitting Category:Works about philosophy of physics to Category:Philosophy of science works and Category:Philosophy of physics

Nominator's rationale: Dual Upmerge for now. There's only one category in here which is unhelpful for navigation Mason (talk) 19:06, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support in principle but only merge to Category:Philosophy of physics, not to the first category because the subcategory is already in Category:Philosophy of science books. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:29, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Sexuality by culture

Propose merging Category:Sexuality by culture to Category:Sexuality

Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. There's only one category in here which is unhelpful for navigation Mason (talk) 19:03, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support in principle, but merge more specifically to Category:History of human sexuality. That should have been a parent category. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:32, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Merge in principle to Category:History of human sexuality. However I nominated the lone child category for further merger, because it is not really worth its own category. Place Clichy (talk) 01:00, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Tunisian politics by century

Propose merging Category:Tunisian politics by century to Category:Centuries in Tunisia

Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. There's only one category in here which is unhelpful for navigation Mason (talk) 18:59, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:34, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Nigerian politics by century

Propose splitting Category:Nigerian politics by century to Category:Political history of Nigeria and Category:Centuries in Nigeria

Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. There's only one category in here which is unhelpful for navigation Mason (talk) 18:57, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support in principle but only merge to Category:Centuries in Nigeria, not to the first target because the content is already in Category:Elections in Nigeria. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:36, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Guyanese politics by century

Propose merging Category:Guyanese politics by century to Category:Politics of Guyana

Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. There's only one category in here which is unhelpful for navigation Mason (talk) 18:56, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support in principle but merge more specifically to Category:Political history of Guyana. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:38, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Islamic encyclopedias

Propose merging Category:Islamic encyclopedias to Category:Encyclopedias of Islam

Nominator's rationale: Overlapping categories. Mason (talk) 18:50, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:59, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Players of American football from Enugu State

Propose merging Category:Players of American football from Enugu State to Category:Nigerian players of American football

Nominator's rationale: Per WP:SMALLCAT User:Namiba 18:36, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge for now, there are only two articles, without objection to recreate the category when more articles are available. Marcocapelle (talk) 22:01, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Revolutionaries from the Russian Empire

Propose merging Category:Revolutionaries from the Russian Empire to Category:Russian revolutionaries

Nominator's rationale: Following brief discussion at [1]. I assume it was created when categories like "Fooian people" became "People from Foo", but this one is problematic. The people in this category are (or should be) Russian, not simply from the Russian Empire, which would also include many Polish, Ukrainian, etc revolutionaries (which I hope we can agree should not belong in a subcategory of "Russian revolutionaries"!). Furthermore, the existence of this category promotes overcategorization, since many of its members were active both before and after 1917. The category simply needs to be merged upward to its parent. asilvering (talk) 18:30, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom. Mason (talk) 19:12, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. These are descriptions of two different things and shouldn’t be merged into a single category that would result in potentially labelling many people of non-Russian identity or ethnicity as “Russian” just because some tsar’s army conquered their country. The empire was a régime that controlled many countries, and we should not be making changes that favour a historical bias that academia is in the process of shedding.[2] If anything, the other category should be split into ethnic Russian and from the Russian Federation categories. —Michael Z. 04:59, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mzajac sorry, I missed this comment before. I find it perplexing - removing some of that historical bias is precisely what I am suggesting. I do not believe that Polish, Ukrainian, etc revolutionaries should be in this category. It is strange to call these people "from the Russian Empire"; I do not believe that is how they were identified historically, nor by historians. The decolonization that Slavic studies is attempting is in this same vein; here is a quote from that article Many scholars say the Russian state receives too much focus in academia at the expense of the colonized nations, regions, and groups, including Ukraine, the Caucasus, and Central Asia, as well as ethnic minority communities in Russia itself.. -- asilvering (talk) 03:09, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So I guess you’re proposing a change in the defined scope of the category, where I only perceived a change in name. That’s fair, but some editors will reasonably want to categorize people according to the state where they were born and lived, possibly for their entire lives. IMO people can and should also be categorize people by their country even if it lacked statehood and belonged to an empire, and the nation they were a member of or paid allegiance to.

In either case, “Russian X” is IMO ridiculously ambiguous and will never well serve either readers or editors. We should use clearly labelled categories like X from Muscovy, X from the Russian Empire, X from the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic, X from the Russian Federation, ethnic-Russian X, etcetera. —Michael Z. 03:23, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, it is very unlikely that the category only contains ethnic Russians. Marcocapelle (talk) 22:06, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Marcocapelle then we should find those ones and remove them from the category - do you see any? -- asilvering (talk) 02:23, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
At a glance, I've spotted a few Polish ones, and again, I don't think it really makes sense for this category to exist at all, and it's not so difficult to remove those ones from the category either after or in advance of a merge upwards. -- asilvering (talk) 02:25, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And what about Ukrainians, Georgians etc.? In fact I do not think it is a good idea to remove any of them at all, as they presumably all were revolutionaries against the Russian Empire. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:29, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It sounds like you're arguing in favour of a different kind of category, one based on what the revolutionaries were fighting against. We have those already: they're things like Category:Decembrists. -- asilvering (talk) 23:12, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Rename per nom. Russian means Russian nationals (i.e. Russian subjects), the term should not be restricted to people of Russian ethnicity. An article can be placed in duplicate categories (e.g. both Category:Polish revolutionaries and Category:Russian revolutionaries) is they are primarily described in reliable sources as Poles within the Russian Empire. Place Clichy (talk) 03:55, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't expect that reliable sources would ever call Polish people in the Russian Empire "Russians". They will be called "Polish people in/of/from the Russian Empire". Marcocapelle (talk) 07:37, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can you find a reliable source that calls someone a "Polish person from the Russian Empire"? -- asilvering (talk) 23:12, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:American inventors

Propose merging Category:African-American inventors to Category:American inventors
Propose merging Category:Alaska Native inventors and scientists to Category:American inventors

Nominator's rationale: Per previous Cfd on "Jewish American inventors" - WP:EGRS. Omnis Scientia (talk) 09:22, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support in principle, but I assume that all articles are already in a subcategory by century and/or by state, so that the nominated categories can simply be deleted. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:35, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fine with deletion. It seems as though all articles are in an appropriate subcategory. Omnis Scientia (talk) 21:47, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep there are countless sources which specifically discuss African-American inventors as a unique topic, see [3] for an example. There is also List of African-American inventors and scientists and List of Alaska Native inventors and scientists.--User:Namiba 19:31, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl talk 17:53, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep per @Namiba Mason (talk) 19:12, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Alumni by university or college in the United Kingdom

Propose renaming:

Alumni by English colleges and universities

Alumni by Scottish colleges and universities

Alumni by Northern Ireland colleges and universities
Category:Alumni of Edgehill Theological College to Category:Edgehill Theological College alumni Category:Alumni of Queen's University Belfast to Category:Queen's University Belfast alumni Category:Alumni of Stranmillis University College to Category:Stranmillis University College alumni Category:Alumni of Ulster University to Category:Ulster University alumni

Alumni by Welsh colleges and universities

Nominator's rationale: In every case I've seen, "Alumni" comes at the end. As far as I can tell, only U.K. univeristy and colleges alumni category are named as such. Omnis Scientia (talk) 11:19, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Subcategories of Category:Alumni by university or college in Ireland also follow this style. Ham II (talk) 10:13, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom and per consistency. BhamBoi (talk) 23:26, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom Mason (talk) 02:36, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Rename per nom. VegaDark (talk) 20:29, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I'm dubious of the construction "St Michael's College, Llandaff alumni"; "Llandaff" was a disambiguator in the former article name (before it was retitled St Padarn's Institute), not a part of the organisation's name. A construction such as "Royal Holloway, University of London alumni" does at least reflect the current official name, but arguably doesn't follow MOS:COMMA. Having the organisation's name at the end avoids some awkward grammatical constructions like these. No argument has been given why the other categories in the Category:Alumni by university or college tree shouldn't be at "Alumni of Foo". Ham II (talk) 10:29, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Ham II, every other country has the name of their colleges and universities like this. WP:C2C clearly applies here. Omnis Scientia (talk) 11:42, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As for the comma: in the cases of these types of category - i.e. university alumni and faculty - the comma doesn't come at the end. It should be the name of the article and "alumni" at the end - Royal Holloway, University of London and Category:Royal Holloway, University of London alumni.

A few examples: subcats of Category:University of California alumni, Category:California State University alumni. So your object, with all due respect, makes no sense. Omnis Scientia (talk) 11:55, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"University of California, Berkeley alumni", "California State University, Bakersfield alumni", et al., don't follow MOS:COMMA – "Berkeley" and "Bakersfield" are parenthetical, so would have to be bracketed by pairs of commas. But as that results in the unnatural construction "University of California, Berkeley, alumni", it should be "Alumni of the University of California, Berkeley". Ham II (talk) 16:13, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For place names where disambiguation is necessary, e.g., Category:Phoenix, Arizona, subcats generally put the phrase at the end to avoid awkward constructions – so "Category:Mayoral elections in Phoenix, Arizona" is preferred over "Category:Phoenix, Arizona mayoral elections" (the latter is a redirect); the cases of university alumni and faculty should be like those. The exceptions are the maintenance category Category:Phoenix, Arizona stubs and its subcat, and Category:Phoenix, Arizona in fiction. That last one ought to be "Phoenix, Arizona, in fiction", to comply with MOS:GEOCOMMA. Ham II (talk) 16:13, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Incidentally, we have the article titles List of University of California, Berkeley, alumni and List of University of California, Berkeley, faculty, which were moved to their current names with bracketing commas in July 2023, explicitly citing MOS:GEOCOMMA, but also List of University of California, Berkeley alumni in academia and five other sub-lists of the list of alumni, the titles of which don't have bracketing commas. If you ask me those should all begin "List of alumni/faculty of...". Ham II (talk) 16:48, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose As per Ham II 14GTR (talk) 19:44, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support all for consistency with alumni from colleges/universities in every other country. There is no WP:ENGVAR reason why the UK should be different. Joseph2302 (talk) 11:50, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Beyond consistency, one advantage of the "X alumni" formulation is that we don't have to figure out whether it should be "Alumni of X" or "Alumni of the X". I don't think there is an ENGVAR reason to prefer one formulation over another. Some of the relevant categories appear to be missing from this proposal; I don't see Category:Alumni of the Open University, for instance. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:46, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Whether to use "Alumni of X" or "Alumni of the X" could be found out by briefly checking the articles in any cases where it isn't immediately clear. (Obviously, that doesn't apply to any of the categories in this nom as the proposal is to move them in the opposite direction.) Also missing from the proposal are the individual colleges of the universities of Oxford, Cambridge and Durham (although Category:Alumni of Westminster College, Oxford – a former Oxford college – and Category:Alumni of Ridley Hall, Cambridge and Category:Alumni of Cranmer Hall, Durham are there). Ham II (talk) 10:13, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ham II, if this goes ahead as "support" for rename, those can be speedied. Omnis Scientia (talk) 14:44, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Briefly checking the articles", when drafting an article that should be placed into one of these categories, means a cumbersome sequence of steps: going from the draft, to the article on the university, to the category for the university, to the category for people from the university, to the category for alumni. And I have not uncommonly encountered cases where there is no category for the university but there is still a category for their alumni, in which case this check doesn't work at all. Having a predictable category system is a better choice. —David Eppstein (talk) 02:21, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
When drafting articles on individual alumni you'd just follow the convention for referring to the institution in running text (i.e., whether it's "at Foo School of Bar" or "at the Foo School of Bar", etc.) in the category name as well. The situation I had in mind when I mentioned "briefly checking the articles in any cases where it isn't immediately clear" was one or more potential CfD nominations in the future, for institutions outside the UK and Ireland. Ham II (talk) 08:00, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You haven't tried drafting many of these articles on people from varied institutions, have you? "The convention for referring to the institution in running text" is not always consistently followed in category names, nor even in running text. And where is one supposed to determine the convention for running text when one is writing the running text oneself? Using a category system that avoids such conventions altogether, by putting "alumni" at the end, is much simpler. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:12, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Do the sources you use to draft articles mention the institutions in any sentences of prose, or do they only list them infobox- or résumé-style? If the former, that's where one would determine whether or not to include an initial "the". Ham II (talk) 06:43, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notified: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Higher education, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject University of Cambridge, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject University of Oxford. Ham II (talk) 09:44, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose as an awkward format as laid out per Ham II and per consistency with the categories across Category:Academics by university or college in the United Kingdom and Category:People by university or college in the United Kingdom. Categories in other countries should be consistent with the construction across Category:Academic staff by university or college set down in a succession of discussions starting a year ago so those should be nominated not these. Timrollpickering (talk) 10:36, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support a consistent format per WP:C2C and the lack of a valid ENGVAR exception, but neutralish on what that format should be for now. I do think Ham II's objection has merit, but David Eppstein's point is also good, and there are potential other reasons to prefer the X alumni construction. We should not let the exception define the rule. Let's get all countries on the same page, and hold a discussion separately about what that page should be. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 18:04, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per consistency with Category:Academic staff by university or college and others such as Category:People by university or college in the United Kingdom as noted by User:Timrollpickering. We should move to a consistent format, but this proposal moves us away from the consistent format defined recently for academic staff. It would be better to move to Alumni of X generally. Robminchin (talk) 06:08, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The "consistency" argument makes no sense when the UK "academics of X" staff categories are also inconsistent with the "academic staff of X" categories used elsewhere. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:13, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would be in favour of renaming Category:Academics by university or college in the United Kingdom and Category:Academics by university or college in Ireland, and their subcategories, in line with the other categories in the Category:Academic staff by university or college in Europe tree. Ham II (talk) 06:43, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The format is entirely consistent within British categories and reads far better in the English language. It is also the format that is commonly used in written and spoken English. If anything, the other construction should be renamed to this one. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:47, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: I agree with Necrothesp—the "Alumni of" formulation reads more naturally. All other categories should be switched over to this format. — SGconlaw (talk) 17:55, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: 60 categories were untagged. I have tagged them accordingly.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl talk 17:47, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: per Necrothesp, "Alumni of" reads more naturally. In any case a recent enormous cfd renamed 'XXX faculty' to 'Academic staff of XXX' and we were promised that a follow-up cfd would rename all instances of 'XXX alumni' to 'Alumni of XXX'. Perspicax (talk) 20:28, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: we also drive on the left in the UK. Left is right! And vive la difference! I agree with the above that "Alumni of ..." is more natural in British English and less ambiguous for some categories that include commas, especially colleges. —Jonathan Bowen (talk) 21:14, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: I'm with everyone else that this reads more naturally and is easier to use. As others point out, we recently changed all the faculty categories to "Academic staff of XXX", so the consistency argument actually favours renaming all the alumni categories to "Alumni of XXX", unless we'd like to overturn that previous CfD. -- asilvering (talk) 02:38, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: Per Necrothesp. "Alumni of" reads better and is less ambiguous. --Uhooep (talk) 01:53, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Same-sex sexuality

Propose splitting Category:Same-sex sexuality to Category:Human sexuality and Category:Homosexuality

Nominator's rationale: split, it is unclear why an intermediate category layer is needed. If content is clearly about same-sex sexuality then it belongs in Category:Homosexuality, if it isn't then it can't belong in a same-sex category either and then it belongs in Category:Human sexuality. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:38, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support Per nom. The companion article, Same-sex attraction, redirects to homosexuality already. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 17:56, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom Mason (talk) 19:13, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support Per nom. Homosexuality means the same thing as same-sex sexuality anyway. SAMBOT2000xp (talk) 16:58, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Fictional characters who can teleport

Propose deleting Category:Fictional characters who can teleport (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Anime and manga characters who can teleport (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Comics characters who can teleport (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:DC Comics characters who can teleport (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Marvel Comics characters who can teleport (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Video game characters who can teleport (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: I'm shocked this category lasted this long, given that it's not defining in the slightest. Teleportation is usually a pretty basic magical ability in a lot of fantasy. For example, Edelgard von Hresvelg belongs here because she warps out in various cutscenes, but there is no way that teleportation is defining for her, or any of the other characters in this category. Fails WP:NONDEF. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 13:03, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Are you kidding me? Teleportation is a clearly defined and distinct superpower which many fictional characters have, and how is it any less of a defining character trait than any other supernatural ability in fiction? I think you just want to delete everything for the sake of deleting. AHI-3000 (talk) 00:40, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Several characters have this as their primary or only supernatural ability. Dimadick (talk) 13:09, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe people would agree to a selective merge to Category:Fictional characters who use magic or its subcategories then. Even in said cases, it's the fact that they can use magic that is defining, not the teleport ability itself. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 13:25, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't agree with merging it into the magic category, besides teleportation is found in both fantasy and science fiction, it's not necessarily a magical power. AHI-3000 (talk) 04:44, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose – it is pretty defining and impacts the characterisation, storylines and development of the character (albeit not all of them to the same extent). DaniloDaysOfOurLives (talk) 10:48, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, at least for Category:Fictional characters who can teleport - I would say several characters are defined by their ability to teleport, namely Nightcrawler (character), Cheshire Cat, and Miraitowa and Someity. (Oinkers42) (talk) 17:37, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl talk 17:36, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:African-American players of American football

Propose deleting Category:African-American players of American football (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:African-American players of Canadian football (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: Per WP:EGRS. The rationale is the same as the recently deleted Category:African-American basketball players (Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_November_2#Category:African-American_basketball_players). For the vast majority of African-American players of American or Canadian football, their ancestry is not cited in reliable sources and is not defining. The articles Black players in professional American football and History of African Americans in the Canadian Football League exist which detail how this has changed over time, which is a much better way of doing so than this category. User:Namiba 16:57, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:44, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. As I've pointed out in that nom, I think that this entire chain of nom's is problematic. The argument of "their ancestry is not cited in reliable sources and is not defining", while being a black american in the united states is still very much defining. At the very least, these pages need to be upmerged to the American players category instead of deleted. Mason (talk) 20:09, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Mason. Also, as I have repeated before, the POINT of these categories is to help with navigation and keep categories from getting too big. Omnis Scientia (talk) 20:46, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There are other means to diffuse large categories that are more pertinent, such as club, position, league, period etc. Guideline WP:FINALRUNG explicitly advises against using ethnicity as a means of diffusion (you should diffuse a large category by ethnicity if is it not already diffused by another non-EGRS characteristic). Place Clichy (talk) 16:03, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If reliable sources don't indicate someone's ethnicity, religion, sexuality, etc, then it is extremely irresponsible to put them into categories to which there is no proof they belong. It flies in the face of WP:BLP and WP:V, two core guidelines of Wikipedia. "I think they're X" is not a reasonable standard but that is how the vast majority of these articles are categorized.--User:Namiba 15:05, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I am *extremely* skeptical of your statement that most of these pages aren't supported by evidence. For example, you said that Aquil Abdullah had "no claim of african heritage" [4]? You even called me snarky when I asked you about it (Talk:Aquil_Abdullah#Removed_categories). Yet, the page said "He was also the first African-American male to win a rowing national championship in 1996, when he won the single sculls competition.[2]" along with several sources supporting it. Mason (talk) 22:26, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you think they are supported by evidence, by all means, don't take my word for it. Go read 10, 20, 100 random articles and see how many claim African-American ancestry.--User:Namiba 18:59, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's harder than it seems. Of course, some athletes' racial backgrounds are well-documented (Willie Thrower, Colin Kaepernick, etc). But if we're talking about a random guy who played a dozen games in the NFL in the early 2000s, we may struggle to find a source that explicitly mentions his race. Journalists do not always have a specific reason to bring up that topic. Zagalejo (talk) 03:32, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per WP:BLPCAT, "Category names do not carry disclaimers or modifiers, so the case for each content category must be made clear by the article text and its verifiable reliable sources." Including categories which are unverified and unverifiable, which this is in the case of thousands of articles, is not a good idea. If it is not repeatedly mentioned in sources, it is, by definition, not defining and should not be included.--User:Namiba 15:02, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per precedent. In most cases, players are placed in this category not because they are commonly and consistently called African American football players by reliable sources, but by face test. Place Clichy (talk) 16:03, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl talk 19:22, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Tagging those who participated (on both sides) of the basketball discussion but have not already commented here so that we might form a consensus on these categories as well: User:Rikster2, User:Zagalejo, User:SportsGuy789.--User:Namiba 18:58, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per unchanged opinion from my deletion vote in the basketball discussion. This category is too vague, non-defining, and opens a door to a definitional discrepancy (i.e. Black is now the politically correct and commonly used description, not African-American). SportsGuy789 (talk) 19:32, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl talk 17:32, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - I just ran into this category editing an article and was surprised there was such a thing. How are biracial and multiracial players to be categorized? Or is Wikipedia intent on maintaining the "one drop" rule of the bad old segregationist South? As a big majority of NFL players are black or bi-racial, this category provides no useful illumination. Carrite (talk) 18:49, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Law enforcement in the United States in fiction

Propose merging Category:Law enforcement in the United States in fiction to Category:Fictional portrayals of police departments in the United States

Nominator's rationale: Duplicate category. –LaundryPizza03 (d c̄) 03:58, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Many US LEAs (e.g. FBI) are not police departments. Apokrif (talk) 04:06, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I still feel that we don't need to segregate police departments from other types of law enforcement. –LaundryPizza03 (d c̄) 04:16, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We should rather merge to Category:Law enforcement in the United States in fiction (more general term,). Apokrif (talk) 06:19, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If merged then reverse merge, as law enforcement is the broader term. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:47, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl talk 21:33, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have tagged Category:Fictional portrayals of police departments in the United States * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 18:24, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl talk 17:24, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Law enforcement is not limited to police. It includes several federal agencies. Dimadick (talk) 16:52, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Works by setting

Propose merging

Category:Works set in the 14th century BC (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 14th century BC
Category:Works set in the 13th century BC (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 13th century BC
Category:Works set in the 12th century BC (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 12th century BC
Category:Works set in the 11th century BC (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 11th century BC
Category:Works set in the 10th century BC (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 10th century BC
Category:Works set in the 9th century BC (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 9th century BC
Category:Works set in the 8th century BC (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 8th century BC
Category:Works set in the 7th century BC (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 7th century BC
Category:Works set in the 6th century BC (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 6th century BC
Category:Works set in the 5th century BC (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 5th century BC
Category:Works set in the 4th century BC (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 4th century BC
Category:Works set in the 3rd century BC (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 3rd century BC
Category:Works set in the 2nd century BC (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 2nd century BC
Category:Works set in the 1st century BC (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 1st century BC
Category:Works set in the 1st century (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 1st century
Category:Works set in the 2nd century (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 2nd century
Category:Works set in the 3rd century (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 3rd century
Category:Works set in the 4th century (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 4th century
Category:Works set in the 5th century (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 5th century
Category:Works set in the 6th century (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 6th century
Category:Works set in the 7th century (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 7th century
Category:Works set in the 8th century (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 8th century
Category:Works set in the 9th century (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 9th century
Category:Works set in the 10th century (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 10th century
Category:Works set in the 11th century (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 11th century
Category:Works set in the 12th century (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 12th century
Category:Works set in the 13th century (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 13th century
Category:Works set in the 14th century (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 14th century
Category:Works set in the 15th century (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 15th century
Category:Works set in the 1410s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 1410s
Category:Works set in the 1420s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 1420s
Category:Works set in the 1450s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 1450s
Category:Works set in the 1460s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 1460s
Category:Works set in the 1470s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 1470s
Category:Works set in the 1480s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 1480s
Category:Works set in the 1490s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 1490s
Category:Works set in the 16th century (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 16th century
Category:Works set in the 17th century (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 17th century
Category:Works set in the 18th century (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 18th century
Category:Works set in the 1720s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 1720s
Category:Works set in the 1730s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 1730s
Category:Works set in the 1760s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 1760s
Category:Works set in the 1770s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 1770s
Category:Works set in the 1780s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 1780s
Category:Works set in the 1790s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 1790s
Category:Works set in the 19th century (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 19th century
Category:Works set in the 1800s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 1800s
Category:Works set in the 1810s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 1810s
Category:Works set in the 1820s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 1820s
Category:Works set in the 1830s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 1830s
Category:Works set in the 1840s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 1840s
Category:Works set in the 1850s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 1850s
Category:Works set in the 1860s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 1860s
Category:Works set in the 1870s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 1870s
Category:Works set in the 1880s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 1880s
Category:Works set in the 1890s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 1890s
Category:Works set in the 20th century (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 20th century
Category:Works set in the 1900s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 1900s
Category:Works set in the 1910s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 1910s
Category:Works set in the 1920s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 1920s
Category:Works set in the 1930s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 1930s
Category:Works set in the 1940s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 1940s
Category:Works set in the 1950s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 1950s
Category:Works set in the 1960s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 1960s
Category:Works set in the 1970s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 1970s
Category:Works set in the 1980s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 1980s
Category:Works set in the 1990s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 1990s
Category:Works set in the 21st century (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 21st century
Category:Works set in the 2000s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 2000s
Category:Works set in the 2010s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 2010s
Category:Works set in the 2020s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 2020s
Category:Works set in the 2030s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 2030s
Category:Works set in the 2040s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 2040s
Category:Works set in the 2050s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 2050s
Category:Works set in the 2060s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 2060s
Category:Works set in the 2070s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 2070s
Category:Works set in the 2080s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 2080s
Category:Works set in the 2090s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 2090s
Category:Works set in the 22nd century (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 22nd century
Category:Works set in the 2100s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 2100s
Category:Works set in the 2110s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 2110s
Category:Works set in the 2120s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 2120s
Category:Works set in the 2130s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 2130s
Category:Works set in the 2140s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 2140s
Category:Works set in the 2150s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 2150s
Category:Works set in the 2160s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 2160s
Category:Works set in the 2170s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 2170s
Category:Works set in the 2180s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 2180s
Category:Works set in the 2190s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 2190s
Category:Works set in the 23rd century (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 23rd century
Category:Works set in the 24th century (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 24th century
Category:Works set in the 25th century (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 25th century
Category:Works set in the 26th century (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 26th century
Category:Works set in the 27th century (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Fiction set in the 27th century

Nominator's rationale: Massive duplication, especially for future dates. Setting is inherently fictional, so any instances of non-fictional subcategories such as Category:History books about the 16th century can simply be moved out. –LaundryPizza03 (d c̄) 06:38, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. The rationale is flawed. Setting (narrative) is clear that non-fiction narratives also have settings. Any narrative, both fiction and non-fiction, will have a setting. 4meter4 (talk) 06:49, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support, only for fiction it is meaningful to categorize by setting. Non-fiction has its own parameters. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:58, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I’m not sold on the idea that non-fiction narratives shouldn’t be organized by setting. It’s a fundamental aspect of nonfiction short stories for example that wouldn’t fit under other cats which would be used to sort history books and other types of nonfiction. Creative nonfiction works in particular benefit by sorting in setting cats. Not all nonfiction is the same. I personally would prefer to keep the works by setting and get rid of the fiction cats rather then the other way around if there must be a merger.4meter4 (talk) 07:10, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Category:Works set in the 20th century also includes Category:History books about the 20th century. History books in general have settings. Dimadick (talk) 08:43, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That exactly touches my earlier point about different parameters for non-fiction: non-fiction history books aren't said to be set in a period, they are said to be about a period (or more broadly, about a topic). Marcocapelle (talk) 22:56, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm with you, @Marcocapelle. "Works set in the 20th century" surely should not include "History books about the 20th century" for exactly this reason. -- asilvering (talk) 02:42, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A related question: is "fiction" a subcategory of "works" or vice versa? Category:Fiction set in the 1940s is currently both subcategory and supercategory of Category:Works set in the 1940s. Goustien (talk) 18:52, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I believe this sort of categories is generally understood as "fictional works", in other words fiction as a subcategory of works. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:39, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl talk 21:39, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl talk 17:24, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Technical note that the edit button for this section seems to be broken and redirects to random other sections on this page:

"Could not find the comment you're replying to on the page. It might have been deleted or moved to another page." Respublik (talk) 17:44, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

- I think I have fixed this by inserting blank lines before the section headings in the first part of the page. – Fayenatic London 19:35, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Trick-and-draw games

Propose deleting Category:Trick-and-draw games (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: This is not a defining category for card games. The most common classification used is at "card game" which splits trick-taking games into plain-trick and point-trick games, each of which is further subdivided. This category sits awkwardly across both types and would include a very large number of games in which you simply play a trick and then draw another card, as opposed to trick-taking games where all the cards are dealt out. There is no way of further subdividing it which is why the systems used by recognised authors don't use it. Bermicourt (talk) 21:49, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Nominator has emptied this category. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:14, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: There were 14 members previously, such as Two-ten-jack, Sixty-Six (card game), and Schnapsen.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkl talk 17:23, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Neuroscience education

Propose merging Category:Neuroscience education to Category:Neuroscience

Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. There's only one category in here, which is unhelpful for navigation Mason (talk) 17:19, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:43, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Roman Catholic chapels in South Africa

Propose merging Category:Roman Catholic chapels in South Africa (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Roman Catholic churches in South Africa, and Category:Chapels in Africa
Propose deleting Category:Chapels in South Africa (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: Only contains 1 article. No objection to recreation if it becomes sufficiently populated. –Aidan721 (talk) 16:46, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:44, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Fictional humans

Propose deleting Category:Fictional humans (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: The very notion of this category is flawed and overbroad. It is quite simply not necessary, because a character being a fictional human is the default, whereas them being inhuman is an exception. That's not to get started with why this is categorized under "fictional apes". ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 16:41, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. From the very beginning I intended this category to only be a container category for subcategories, not articles, so that it won't become too broad in scope; hence why the original name for this category when I created it was Category:Fictional humans by type. Also humans are indeed great apes, it's a fact that can't be disputed. I don't know what exactly you are arguing for here. AHI-3000 (talk) 00:22, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is not that it's a container category, it's that it's problematic as a category period.

Humans are technically primates, but common sense is that people would not be searching for humans as a subcategory of primates outside of a scientific context. It is exceedingly odd when done in a context of fictional characters.

Both these decisions appear to be motivated by a desire to make direct duplicates of real-life scientific categories/classifications while totally ignoring the distinction between how things are treated in real life vs. fiction. Real life and fictional categories cannot and should not perfectly match up, because they're two different things. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 11:35, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Zxcvbnm Is that really your only gripe with this category? It's also a subcategory of Category:Fictional characters by species and Category:Fictional humanoids. But what you stated isn't even a proper justification for deleting it. AHI-3000 (talk) 21:04, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Procedural oppose, this deletion will leave the subcategories orphaned. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:46, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Marcocapelle: They're all already in other categories, I'm not sure what will be orphaned here. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 18:35, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- @Zxcvbnm: I notice that all subcategories are somewhere else in Category:Fictional characters too, except Category:Fictional black people. As the latter subcategory has been nominated for deletion, I will strike my oppose. But if Category:Fictional black people is kept, it should still be added somewhere in the tree of Category:Fictional characters. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:48, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. The main category should be Category:Fictional characters. One of the reasons why categorizing characters as humans is a problem, besides the above, is the always possible plot twist when a character you assumed was human turns out to be something else. In other words: if it's animal (or elfic etc.) you know (and the character will be defined as such from the start), if it's human you don't know. Place Clichy (talk) 04:01, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Place Clichy: This is a container category, it's meant for subcategories, not individual character pages. AHI-3000 (talk) 04:41, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Still. Place Clichy (talk) 09:50, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Place Clichy: Still what exactly? AHI-3000 (talk) 21:05, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Respectfully, I still consider that the character of this category is not defining, regardless of it being a container category. Place Clichy (talk) 16:33, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose "because a character being a fictional human is the default" It is far from common in several fictional settings, including much of the fantasy genre. Dimadick (talk) 16:54, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Fictional human races

Propose merging Category:Fictional human races to Category:Fictional species and races

Nominator's rationale: I've come to think that this category is too heavy an overlap to exist. When we say "fictional race", from a standpoint of humans, a humanoid race is the default. If we want to further specify, there are categories for that. But there's no need to specifically categorize groups of humans. This can be diffused to Category:Fictional ethnic groups and Category:Fictional species and races depending on the article. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 16:34, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alternate merge/split Category:Fictional human races into both Category:Fictional ethnic groups and Category:Human-derived fictional species. AHI-3000 (talk) 04:52, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Split to Category:Fictional ethnic groups and Category:Fictional species and races per nom. In addition I would expect that Category:Fictional species and races can be limited to Category:Fictional species but that is probably for a next nomination. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:50, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Irish Free State culture

Propose merging Category:Irish Free State culture to Category:Irish Free State

Nominator's rationale: Redundant category layer with just one child (Category:Sport in the Irish Free State), which is already in Category:Culture of the Republic of Ireland through other means. Note that the Irish Free State (1922-1937) is not a former country, it is a former political regime of an extant country. Place Clichy (talk) 16:20, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom Mason (talk) 17:20, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:54, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Religion in the Autonomous Region of Bougainville

Propose merging Category:Bougainvillean culture to Category:Autonomous Region of Bougainville
Propose merging Category:Christianity in the Autonomous Region of Bougainville to Category:Religion in the Autonomous Region of Bougainville

Nominator's rationale: Redundant layers with just one child. They are not useful for navigation. Place Clichy (talk) 16:14, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:56, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Chapels by country

Propose merging Category:Chapels in Taiwan (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Churches in Taiwan, and Category:Chapels in Asia
Propose merging Category:Chapels in Serbia (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Churches in Serbia, and Category:Chapels in Europe
Propose merging Category:Chapels in Bosnia and Herzegovina (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Chapels in Europe
Propose deleting Category:Chapels in Mexico (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: Each only contains 1 article. No merging is necessary for the Mexico category as the article is in Category:Dominican churches in Mexico and Category:Roman Catholic chapels in North America. No objective to recreation if any become sufficiently populated in the future. –Aidan721 (talk) 16:04, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:58, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Indigenous languages of Europe

Propose deleting Category:Indigenous languages of Europe (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: Do you know what's in common between Basque, Slavic languages and Oghur languages? They are indigenous languages, according to some editors. Follow-up to #Indigenous peoples of Europe: the term indigenous is not a pertinent descriptor for these European languages, which are no more or no less indigenous than other neighbouring languages. Simple deletion (no merger) as all content is already correctly categorized e.g. in Category:Languages of Europe by country and Category:Language isolates of Europe. Place Clichy (talk) 15:33, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. An Indigenous language is the language of an Indigenous people. It may have legal status as such, and may be subject to the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. Such a deletion proposal should be made on a global basis and require an RFC. —Michael Z. 17:13, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:59, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Documentary films about men

Propose merging Category:Documentary films about men to Category:Biographical documentary films

Nominator's rationale: manually merge per WP:EGRS, films about men in general is not a notable topic in itself. The merge should be done manually because most of the content is already in Category:Documentary films about music and musicians or in Category:Documentary films about politicians. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:31, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom Mason (talk) 17:20, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Paintings in Ede, Netherlands

Propose merging Category:Paintings in Ede, Netherlands to Category:Ede, Netherlands

Nominator's rationale: merge, redundant category layer with only one subcategory. A dual merge is not needed, the subcategory is already in Category:Paintings in the Netherlands by collection. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:41, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge per nom. –Aidan721 (talk) 15:40, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Pan-Oceanianism

Propose merging Category:Pan-Oceanianism to Category:Pan-nationalism
Propose deleting Category:Oceanianization

Nominator's rationale: Only one eponymous article (WP:C2F). Place Clichy (talk) 14:00, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge per nom. I am taking the liberty to add another category to this nomination, which also contains only the same article. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:31, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, good catch. I support this as well. Place Clichy (talk) 15:35, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Paintings in the Netherlands

Propose merging Category:Paintings in Gelderland to Category:Culture of Gelderland and move the three articles to Category:Paintings in the Netherlands
Propose merging Category:Paintings in province of Groningen to Category:Culture of Groningen (province)
Propose deleting Category:Paintings in North Holland
Propose deleting Category:Paintings in South Holland
Propose deleting Category:Paintings in the province of Utrecht

Nominator's rationale: merge, there are some Dutch museums with a lot of notable paintings, but there aren't many museums for paintings, and thus a very detailed geographical category tree does not make much sense. The proposal consists of only a selective merge because much of the content stays in the tree of Category:Paintings in the Netherlands by city anyway. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:45, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Indigenous peoples of Europe

Propose merging Category:Indigenous peoples of Europe to Category:Ethnic groups in Europe
Propose merging Category:Indigenous activists of Europe to Category:Minority rights activists
Propose merging Category:Indigenous peoples of Russia to Category:Ethnic groups in Russia
Propose merging Category:Indigenous peoples of Ukraine to Category:Ethnic groups in Ukraine

Nominator's rationale: merge, the history of Eurasia is full of peoples migrating for thousands of kilometers and assimilating with other peoples to other peoples. It is impossible to tell which peoples are truly indigenous. At best we can tell which groups are ethnic minorities, but that is what the "Ethnic groups" tree is for anyway. For example, the Crimean Tatars are here, of whom their ethnicity emerged only since the 13th century. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:35, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Indigenous peoples are not just “ethnic minorities.” They are the subjects of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, are designated as such by UN member states (the law of Ukraine designates three such peoples), and have certain protected rights different from those of “ethnic minorities.” Eliminating these categories should not be done on a regional basis and based on the random opinions that history is hard and the supposed indeterminability of “truly Indigenous,” and distastefully bad logic about Crimean Tatars (a stereotypically colonial statement casting doubt on the legal rights and very validity of a national group that’s been subject to genocide and persecution for centuries). —Michael Z. 17:07, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge. The indigenous label is never used consistently in Europe. It is a risky game to call which ethnic groups are indigenous and which are not. Terms like ethnic groups and minorities are much more reliably used in academia in the European context. Main article Indigenous peoples and main Category:Indigenous peoples clearly define the term as linked to societies that have been overwhelmed by modern colonization, which is the case in Sub-Saharan Africa, Oceania and the Americas but not Europe or Asia. Place Clichy (talk) 14:14, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Establishments in Baden by century

Propose deleting Category:Establishments in Baden by century (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Establishments in Bremen by century (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Establishments in the Grand Duchy of Hesse by century (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Propose deleting Category:Establishments in Saxony by century (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: These currently only contain C19 subcats. Once the "by century" cats are deleted, the template on the subcats will automatically place them instead in the parent e.g. Category:Establishments in Bremen. – Fayenatic London 12:33, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, per nom. It makes sense that only 19th-century categories exist because before the 19th century the articles are in better populated Holy Roman Empire categories. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:05, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. Mason (talk) 17:21, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

History of the Kilwa Sultanate

Propose merging Category:10th-century establishments in the Kilwa Sultanate to Category:10th-century establishments in Africa and Category:Kilwa Sultanate
Propose deleting Category:History of the Kilwa Sultanate
Propose deleting Category:History of the Kilwa Sultanate by period
Propose deleting Category:Millennia in the Kilwa Sultanate
Propose deleting Category:Centuries in the Kilwa Sultanate
Propose deleting Category:1st millennium in the Kilwa Sultanate
Propose deleting Category:10th century in the Kilwa Sultanate
Propose deleting Category:1st-millennium establishments in the Kilwa Sultanate
Propose deleting Category:Establishments in the Kilwa Sultanate
Propose deleting Category:Establishments in the Kilwa Sultanate by millennium
Propose deleting Category:Establishments in the Kilwa Sultanate by century

Nominator's rationale: Merge hierarchy which currently exists for one article alone (Great Mosque of Kilwa) aside from the Sultanate itself. – Fayenatic London 12:04, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge/delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:07, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom Mason (talk) 17:21, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Sidi Boushaki

Propose merging Category:Sidi Boushaki to Category:Boushaki family

Nominator's rationale: There's really not enough here for a category. One category (with a single item), the person, and the Zawiyet named after them Mason (talk) 06:02, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge per nom, without objection to recreate the category when more articles are available. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:06, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Boumerdassi family

Propose merging Category:Boumerdassi family to Category:Kabyle people

Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. There are only two people in this family category, which is unhelpful for navigation Mason (talk) 06:00, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge per nom, without objection to recreate the category when more articles are available. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:07, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:People from CITY by occupation

Propose merging Category:People from Imishli by occupation to Category:People from Imishli
Propose merging Category:People from Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, by occupation to Category:People from Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Propose merging Category:People from Agartala by occupation to Category:People from Agartala
Propose merging Category:People from Huddinge by occupation to Category:People from Huddinge Municipality
Propose merging Category:People from Rokiškis by occupation to Category:People from Rokiškis
Propose merging Category:People from Trakai by occupation to Category:People from Trakai
Propose merging Category:People from Panevėžys by occupation to Category:People from Panevėžys
Propose merging Category:People from Palanga by occupation to Category:People from Palanga
Propose merging Category:People from Mardan by occupation to Category:People from Mardan District
Propose merging Category:People from Vehari by occupation to Category:People from Vehari
Propose merging Category:People from Sargodha by occupation to Category:People from Sargodha
Propose merging Category:People from Sheikhupura by occupation to Category:People from Sheikhupura
Propose merging Category:People from Muzaffargarh by occupation to Category:People from Muzaffargarh
Propose merging Category:People from Yelets by occupation to Category:People from Yelets
Propose merging Category:People from Ilesha by occupation to Category:People from Ilesha

Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. There is only one occupation in each of these categories, which is unhelpful for navigation. Mason (talk) 05:11, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge per nom. One of them meanwhile has two subcategories but that does not change matters. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:09, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Good catch! Thank you for always looking into the categories to see if the number has changed since I nominated them :) Mason (talk) 17:22, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Merge per nom. AlexandraAVX (talk) 12:34, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Performance psychology

Propose merging Category:Performance psychology to Category:Industrial and organizational psychology

Nominator's rationale: Non-defining category/field. Merge to the closest area. Mason (talk) 04:41, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just delete, the only article is not about psychology. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:11, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Arabi Malayalam-language education

Propose merging Category:Arabi Malayalam-language education to Category:Arabi Malayalam

Nominator's rationale: Only page in here is about a memorial, upmerge for now until there's enough content to populate this category Mason (talk) 03:48, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just delete, the only article is about a building, not about language. Arabi Malayalam-language education is about the current activities in the building but that is not an attribute we normally categorize buildings by. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:16, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per Marcocapelle – the article does not mention the language. – Fayenatic London 14:20, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Arabi Malayalam-language songs

Propose merging Category:Arabi Malayalam-language songs to Category:Arabi Malayalam

Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. There's only one page in here, which is unhelpful for navigation. Mason (talk) 03:46, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge per nom, without objection to recreate the category when more articles are available. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:19, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Arabi Malayalam-language literature

Propose merging Category:Arabi Malayalam-language literature to Category:Arabi Malayalam

Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. There's only one page + a category (with only one page in it) in here, which is unhelpful for navigation Mason (talk) 03:45, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge per nom, without objection to recreate the category when more articles are available. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:18, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Odia-language culture

Propose deleting Category:Odia-language culture (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: Only one page in here, which is unhelpful for navigation. The lone page is already in the potential target category Category:Odia language, so delete instead of upmerge for now. Mason (talk) 03:44, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom, without objection to recreate the category when more articles are available.

Category:People killed in the war in Sudan (2023)

Propose renaming Category:People killed in the war in Sudan (2023) to Category:People killed in the war in Sudan (2023−present)

Nominator's rationale: Same reason as the previous proposal TheLibyanGuy (talk) 02:51, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Rename per article title War in Sudan (2023–present). Marcocapelle (talk) 07:21, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Eponyms in anatomy

Propose splitting Category:Eponyms in anatomy to Category:Eponyms in biology and Category:Eponyms in medicine

Nominator's rationale: Dual merge (or listify). There's only one page in here, which is unhelpful for navigaiton Mason (talk) 02:36, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dual merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:23, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Allelopathic substances

Propose merging Category:Allelopathic substances to Category:Biochemistry

Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. There's only one page in here, which is unhelpful for navgiation Mason (talk) 02:33, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just delete, biochemistry is a far too broad target for a particular substance. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:26, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Works for me. I picked it based on it being a child category, but you're 100% right that it doesn't help/is too broad. Mason (talk) 17:23, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Uzès family

Propose deleting Category:Uzès family (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: Delete for now. There's only one very short page in here, which is extremely unhelpful for navigation. Mason (talk) 01:54, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:27, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:House of Goyon

Propose deleting Category:House of Goyon (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: Unhelpful to have this category with only two familty members it in. This family is primarily notable for having a male marry into Grimaldi line, and letting the Grimaldi name continue (If I'm reading Charles Auguste de Goyon, Count of Gacé correctly) Mason (talk) 01:52, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom, without objection to recreate the category when more articles are available. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:28, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Incest in Greek mythology

Propose deleting Category:Incest in Greek mythology (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: Per Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_December_28#Category:Incest_in_legend * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 01:10, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, not a defining characteristic. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:29, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Incest is indeed a defining characteristic of a number of stories in Greek mythology. The most famous examples are Myrrha and Cinyras (or Theias), and Oedipus and Jocasta, but others include Bulis and Aegypius, Menephron and his daughter (or mother), Byblis and Caunos, and Nyctimene and Epopeus. In most (or all) of these cases, incest is the central theme. – Michael Aurel (talk) 09:09, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I completely agree that it is a defining characteristic of stories in Greek mythology. But the category does not contain stories, it contains characters. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:11, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that distinction makes sense. Most of the figures mentioned above only feature in one myth, one centered around incest. How would incest not be a defining attribute for, say, Myrrha, Byblis, or Menephron? It's the only thing ancient authors mention them in relation to. – Michael Aurel (talk) 23:45, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Only contains characters, and this isn't a defining characteristic of said characters. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 16:45, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:War in Sudan (2023)

Propose renaming Category:War in Sudan (2023) to Category:War in Sudan (2023−present)

Nominator's rationale: It is now 2024 and the conflict is still ongoing TheLibyanGuy (talk) 00:56, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also do note that when and if the war ends, the category name may need to be changed again. TheLibyanGuy (talk) 02:03, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy rename as C2D. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 01:10, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Rename per article title War in Sudan (2023–present). Marcocapelle (talk) 07:30, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 478: / Line 478: @@
 *'''Support''' Per nom. The companion article, [[Same-sex attraction]], redirects to homosexuality already. [[User:Zxcvbnm|ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ]] ([[User talk:Zxcvbnm|ᴛ]]) 17:56, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
 *:'''Support''' per nom [[User:Smasongarrison|Mason]] ([[User talk:Smasongarrison|talk]]) 19:13, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
+*'''Support''' Per nom. Homosexuality means the same thing as same-sex sexuality anyway. [[User:SAMBOT2000xp|SAMBOT2000xp]] ([[User talk:SAMBOT2000xp|talk]]) 16:58, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
 ==== Category:Fictional characters who can teleport ====