Talk:Cardamom bread

Swedish name

What is the Swedish name for this? Badagnani (talk) 05:41, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I question the merit of keeping a separate article for this topic. I live in Sweden and I have certainly eaten cardamom rolls/bread/buns/pastry before, but it is not as established as this article implies. The Swedish terms used for this are not common and can't compare with, for example, cinnamon rolls. Just try googling for kardemummabröd/kardemummabulle and compare it with kanelbulle. I suggest that this article be merged with Swedish cuisine.

Peter ^Isotalo 17:41, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow, it's quite famous in the States. Perhaps it has declined in popularity in the original country after having been imported by the Scandinavian settlers to North America? Or perhaps it's really a Finnish cuisine item (i.e., Pulla), which Swedes also bake from time to time? I believe an article is merited, as it is a distinct type of bread/cake that is well known and widely prepared (as, for example, the Cinnamon roll). Badagnani (talk) 17:46, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I have no idea how common this is in the states, but the Swedish aspect of the topic seem quite exaggerated in this article. I can't be 100% sure, but the association with Saint Lucy's Day and Christmas is very doubtful since sweetened bread and buns flavored with cardamom and cinnamon (the latter being far more common) occur all year round as fikabröd (roughly: "coffee bread"). The only culinary item that is intimitely associated with Saint Lucy is the lussekat. As a Swede the distinct nature of cardamom-flavored bread strikes me as being presented here in a rather artificial way since cardamom may be used to flavor either buns, cakes or sweet wheat dough bread formed like braids. The common denominator would to me be the shape or the ingredients used for the cake/bread/bun itself rather than the flavoring itself.

While this shouldn't be interepreted as a conclusive evidence, I checked SAOB (the national dictionary of the Swedish language) for attestations for kardemummabröd, but couldn't find any. Kanelbröd, though, was attested in writing as early as 1832, and according to Nationalencyklopedin, kanelbulle has been around since the 1950s.

Peter ^Isotalo 16:54, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

First of all, you may be using the wrong Swedish name. Secondly, things Swedish (in Sweden) may have changed in 100 years since the settlers came to North America. For example, dancing the polka is not popular in Poland, but remains hugely popular for Polish Americans. Badagnani (talk) 17:05, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I notice that you've removed all mention of Scandinavia or any Scandinavian nations or culture. Please reverse this very poor choice of edit, as the sources do state, massively, that this is a culinary item of Scandinavian origin (either Swedish or Finnish). Badagnani (talk) 17:06, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

The sources state that it's spelled bullar, bullah, or bulla in Swedish (at least by Swedes in North America). Badagnani (talk) 17:13, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

This search result does not seem to show that this is not a Swedish form of bread. Badagnani (talk) 17:37, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

See this result as well. Badagnani (talk) 17:39, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

This could rather easily be solved by adding a reliable source identifying cardamom bread as distinctly Swedish, Finnish, Nordic or Scandinavian. It certainly exists in Sweden, but I found the claims of ties with Saint Lucia celebrations to be exaggerated. In my experience, it can be eaten as part of fika (coffee, tea and the various pastries and bread eaten with it) any time of the year. If it's part of Swedish American culture, fine, but that's something that is rather separate from Swedish culture.

Peter ^Isotalo 09:50, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh, you speak Svenska? Excellent. We really need someone to evaluate those online sources, so that's really appreciated. Hope you can help get to the bottom of this. Here in the U.S., we always say that cardamom-type breads are Scandinavian/Nordic in origin. Perhaps Google Books could help. Badagnani (talk) 17:19, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Swedes and Finns use cardamom in bread, but as far as I know it's not considered a defining aspect of either Swedish or Finnish cuisine or culture, and no one has presented any sources that suggest otherwise. What Swedish Americans think of cardamom bread is not relevant to Swedish culture since they are two separate cultures without much direct recent interaction. However, I don't really see why this issue is treated separately from the article on cardamom. Even with a sizeable expansion, the amount of material on cardamom bread will most likely not going to be large enough to merit a separate article.

Peter ^Isotalo 11:28, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

The question is, what do the sources actually say? In North America, we believe that cardamom bread is a signally important dish in Scandinavian food, perhaps second only to lutefisk (or smorgasbord) in notoriety as an indicator of Scandinavian culinary identity; clearly we don't know many Scandinavian dishes, but these are the ones known from the immigrants who brought them. Perhaps it's possible that it's an "Old World" recipe popular in the 19th century, which became less popular in Europe and remained very popular among Scandinavian immigrants to North America. Whatever the case, I'm sure there's no lack of sources about this cuisine item, which has been written about quite a bit. The thing is, you have skills in Swedish and we're eager to see what the Swedish sources (not just Internet, but actual Swedish-language cookbooks and other books about cuisine, dating back to the early 19th century) say about these sweet or semi-sweet cardamom breads. Badagnani (talk) 18:06, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Traditions brought over by immigrants from one country to another are often prone to major change. I've heard occasional stories of Swedish Americans who appear to have exaggerated certain traditions, often with distinctly American cultural interpretations (like eating American pancakes instead of Swedish ones and still calling it a Swedish tradition). Making cardamom bread in Bundt cake pans is not recongizable to me, and makes me think of sponge cake rather than stereotypical fikabröd made from sweet wheat dough (somewhat like pulla). Frosting isn't unheard of in Sweden, but it's not as popular as it is in the US. Walnuts, however, I suspect being a purely American thing.

As far as Swedish sources go, I've checked Nationalencyklopedin, which mentions Swedish and Finnish bread flavored with cardamom in the article on the spice, but otherwise says nothing else. I'm taking a course in ethnology, and that includes reading quite a lot about rural eating habits. I have yet to find any specific mention of cardamom bread, and nothing indicating that it is considered a defining part of Scandinavian cuisine. I haven't read 19th century Swedish cookbooks, but I do know that cardamom does not really occur in late 18th century recipes (I wrote a student essay on 17th and 18th century cookbooks last semester).

The jist of what I've learned so far through personal experience and reading sources is that cardamom bread occurs in Sweden and Finland, but that it's not considered a highly significant part of Nordic cuisine. And I still recommend redirecting this article to cardamom and expanding the section on culinary uses there instead.

Peter ^Isotalo 09:23, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

If it turns out that this is a fairly obscure and not-very-popular Scandinavian recipe (which I'm still not convinced of, especially as it's very likely that the Scandinavian kind does not use Bundt pans, frosting, or nuts, but still exists as some form of cardamom-flavored bread/cake), but is a very popular Scandinavian-American dish, then it would certainly not make sense to remove this article and redirect it to "Cardamom." That wouldn't make sense, if it's a prominent dish--and I believe it to be such--among Scandinavian-American cuisine. It is surely a well known regional/subcultural cuisine item here in North America, and shows up in innumerable "country cookbooks," straight up to the present, almost always with the modifier "Swedish" or "Scandinavian" in the title. Badagnani (talk) 17:54, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Again, it occurs in Sweden and Finland. It's not obscure, but neither is it defining. Cinnamon (and saffron when it comes to Saint Lucy's) is what is most closely associated with fikabröd in Sweden. As for redirecting or keeping separate, I'm only acting on the conspicuous absence of sourced information. Where are the sources to support your claims about how important this is for either Swedish or Swedish American cuisine?

Peter ^Isotalo 05:53, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Searching this way, one finds that a great many of the recipes mention Sweden or Scandinavia as the origin; you can also add "Swedish" or "Scandinavian" to the search. Badagnani (talk) 22:28, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Are there no print sources for cardamom bread in the US? Blogs and online recipes aren't very reliable sources for anything other than how to make the bread.

Peter ^Isotalo 08:47, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Various cardamom breads (usually presented as "Swedish" or "Scandinavian" are in innumerable country cookbooks published in the U.S. Badagnani (talk) 21:06, 3 September 2008 (UTC)