Talk:Commonwealth realm/Archive 4

Capitalisation

What is the appropriate capitalization of this phrase? Can we make the title and the first sentence consistant? -- Zoe

It seems to me that it should be "Commonwealth realm" for the same reason I'd expect an article about European kingdoms to have a lower case "k". Ben Arnold 12:23, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ireland's leaving

Surely Ireland left in 1949 - from recollection the 1937 constitution or related law retained the monarchy as an organ for external relations and they remained in the Commonwealth (and relations with the UK went through the Dominions Office, not the Foreign Office). I won't change it without checking here though. Timrollpickering 12:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Any chance to consolidate Commonwealth Realm with the Commonwealth?

Any chance of listing the 'Realms' at the bottom of "The Commonwealth of Nations" simply to be able to consolidate some templates??? CaribDigita 16:08, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Powers of the Realms

I disagree with the statement "Another power the realms hold is the formal approval of any marriage within the royal family that may produce an heir to the throne". The Royal Family are British citizens, therefore they are only subject to British law. Thus if say New Zealand passes a law forbidding marriage, or the government is against the marriage, there is no legal barrier to marriage in the UK. Astrotrain 20:44, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

One Crown or several?

I've moved most of what was in this section to the "interpretation" section of O'Donohue v. Canada, 2003. Personal opinions about Rouleau's ruling do not belong in this article as they have no effect on the standing theories on the Crown over the Commonwealth Realms, and are relevant only to the ruling itself. --gbambino 21:04, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I'd also like to note that I did attempt to state "see talk" when making the edit, however, that comment did not show up in the history. My apologies for any confusion. --gbambino 22:16, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I have again removed the section as the statement "Some hold that this theory was contradicted, in Canada at least, by a 2003 Ontario Superior Court ruling by Justice Paul S. Rouleau" is original research. Without this unfounded contradiction of the established relationship of the Crown over an in it's Realms, the entire section is pointless. --gbambino 19:11, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Given that you saw fit to move the section to another article you cannot now claim it's original research, particularly when it comes with citations from a court ruling. Are you going to argue that Peter's O'Donohue v Queen article be deleted as well? AndyL 19:25, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

I've rewritten the passage so that it simply states the facts without any interpretation.AndyL 19:32, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Andy, While Rouleau's ruling may make references to the Crown over the Commonwealth Realms, as well as the Crown within Canada, it does not put into question the established status of the Crown. No matter how you want to word it, the retention of "One Crown or Many?" is your own lone attempt to upset the status quo. Until you have provided ample secondary sources (though, one would be nice at least) to back up your claim that the ruling really raises any questions amongst constitutional scholars, then its still nothing more than original research.

As for it's inclusion on O'Donohue v. Canada, 2003-- I certainly can "claim" it's still original research. But for the time being I think the disease-like spread of your personal theory on this matter needs to be reigned in, and O'Donohue v. Canada, 2003 is the best place to narrow it down to as it is really only relevant to that ruling. --gbambino 19:56, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Citation from an original source is not original research. Let's leave it to the mediator.

BTW, you've reverted three times now. Once more and you'll break the 3 revert rule and be banned for 24 hours. AndyL 20:04, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Stop playing your silly game of hiding behind a direct quote as your defence for its manipulation. What constitutes original research here is your theory on the implication of the ruling not the quotations from the ruling itself!

For the assitance of the mediator, from original research:

The phrase "original research" in this context refers to untested theories; data, statements, concepts and ideas that have not been published in a reputable publication; or any new interpretation, analysis, or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts or ideas that, in the words of Wikipedia's founder Jimbo Wales, would amount to a "novel narrative or historical interpretation".

Original research is research that produces primary sources or secondary sources. Primary sources present information or data, such as archeological artifacts; photographs; historical documents such as a diary, census, transcript of a public hearing, trial, or interview; tabulated results of surveys or questionnaires, records of laboratory assays or observations; records of field observations. Secondary sources present a generalization, analysis, synthesis, interpretation, or evaluation of information or data.

Original research that produces primary sources is not allowed. However, research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary and secondary sources is strongly encouraged. In fact, all articles on Wikipedia should be based on information collected from primary and secondary sources. This is called source-based research, and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia.

==What is excluded from articles==

A Wikipedia entry (including any part of an article) counts as original research if it proposes ideas, that is:

it introduces a theory or method of solution; or
it introduces original ideas; or
it defines new terms; or
it provides new definitions of old terms; or
it introduces an original argument purporting to refute or support another idea, theory, argument, or position described in the article; or
it introduces neologisms.

All of the above may be acceptable content once they have become a permanent feature of the public landscape. For example:

the ideas have been accepted for publication in a peer-reviewed journal; or
the ideas have become newsworthy: they have been independently reported in newspapers or news stories (such as the cold fusion story).

All the highlighted points apply to the numerous times you have tried to push your interpretation of Rouleau's ruling onto Wikipedia articles. That said, I will leave it to the mediator. --gbambino 20:25, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

I think you should read what you've posted. The "idea" that there is a single crown and not multiple crowns does not originate with me. St. Laurent said it himself in 1953 and it's been said many times since. See The Commonwealth website for instance and as I keep saying, Rouleau himself speaks of "Union under the British Crown." It's not original research to say that Rouleau said that, it's simply taking a direct quote. The article does not interpret the quote, it simply presents it. That the quote contradicts your personal theory of the monarchy (or rather that of the MLC) does not make it "original research", it just means that your personal theory is just that, a theory not a fact. AndyL 20:56, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Again, stop trying to be purposefully complex in an attempt to guard your fallacies. There is no debate about there being one Crown-- and there never has been. What you are trying to do is use conveniently extracted quotations from Rouleau's ruling to support your theory that the ruling itself brings into question the established situation of the Crown operating over and within each of it's Realms. What you are also trying to do is use conveniently extracted quotations from Rouleau's ruling to validate your theory that the Crown in Right of Canada is a British institution. You do this when no lawyer, judge, or constitutional expert has ever done the same. You do this in the face of words from lawyers, constitutional experts, and even from Justice Rouleau himself, which negate your theory. That, without a doubt, constitutes 'original research,' as explained above. --gbambino 21:47, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Rouleau's statements speak for themselves. They contradict the POV propaganda you get from the MLC and so you divine ways to rationalise or excuse what he says away. Somehow, in your mind, when he says "British Crown" he doesn't really mean it. Anyway, gbambino, you're just a mouthpiece for the MLC - you should try to open your mind a bit and read what's really there instead of what you want to see or what the MLC wants you to think. I know that the MLC wants to distance the crown from the notion of British empire and colonialism in order to make it seem more Canadian and more attractive to modern Canadians but it's not our job to only include facts that fit the MLCs propaganda goals and exclude those that contradict them. Much of what you've been doing is excising inconvenient facts and paragraphs that contradict the MLCs party line and before you blame me for insterting them in the first place, much of what you've censored has been written by others. Basically, you've been operating like a vandal by removing things you don't like and a propagandist by copying MLC material and pasting it in almost without alteration. Despite all your attempts to deflect things on to me your own behaviour remains clear. AndyL 00:18, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Obviously Rouleau's statements do not speak for themselves; you choose to ignore much of them and read implications into the rest to back up your personal theories. As I've stated earlier, you should stop inferring that what Peter Grey and I provide you with is "MLC propaganda," it makes you appear trite and ignorant as any person reading through the reams of debate that have gone on here can see that it is not. And, again, your attempts to defame me in an effort to divert attention away from yourself is a tad pathetic and leads one to wonder precisely what it is you have to hide from. --gbambino 01:22, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

"you choose to ignore much of them and read implications into the rest to back up your personal theories."

Read what the article actually says. Which sentence of the article constitutes original research? Give me a specific example below.AndyL 01:25, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

The non-existent debate behind "One Crown or Several?" is what constitutes 'original research'. You have taken a primary source (Rouleau's ruling) and applied to it your theory that it creates some sort of debate about the current relationship of the Crown in and over its Realms.

What's more, in an attempt to validate your theory you pull out of context those quotations from your primary source which aid you, and conveniently ignore those which contradict you. For example, why do you never include Rouleau's statement: "[34] The operation of this commitment to symmetry and union of Canada under the British Crown was demonstrated by the adoption in 1937 of the Succession to the Throne Act, I Geo. IV, c.16. This Canadian statute effected changes to the rules of succession in Canada to assure consistency with the changes in the rules then in place in Great Britain. The changes were necessary in light of the abdication of Edward VIII in 1936. Absent this Canadian statute, the statutory change in Great Britain to account for Edward VIII's abdication would have been contrary to Great Britain's commitment in the Statute of Westminster. Arguably, without this statute, Edwards VIII's abdication would not have been effective in respect of the Crown of Canada"?

It is most likely because right there in Rouleau's ruling is the affirmation of the existent relationship of the Crown in and over its Realms: though Canada, the UK, and every other Realm, equally share the same one Crown ("commitment to symmetry and union", "Great Britain's commitment in the Statute of Westminster"), the institution operates as a separate legal entity within each nation. They stem from the same body -- one Crown, one Queen -- but the Crown in Right of Canada is different and separate to the Crown in Right of the U.K. ("the rules of succession in Canada" vs. "the rules then in place in Great Britain", "without this statute, Edwards VIII's abdication would not have been effective in respect of the Crown of Canada").

You've misinterpreted all along that "the MLC argues" there is no one Crown, only separate ones. You've also misinterpreted that the one Crown you realise exists is purely British. And to back all that up you've pulled bits and pieces of Rouleau's ruling out of context. You've never been able to see what's correct actually exists somewhere in the middle -- one Crown equally over all Realms, operating distinctly within each. But, if the Crown is over all Realms, all Realms are equal (as laid out in the Statute of Westminster), and Britain is a Realm itself, then the Crown cannot be purely British. Only as the Crown in Right of Great Britain can it be British, and therefore the Crown in Right of Canada is Canadian -- as Rouleau points out.

It's been said time and time again that this is a complex matter, but that's no excuse for your personal interpretation of things to be included on Wikipedia articles. And, as it stands, unless you provide secondary sources to back up your claim that Rouleau's ruling actually creates any debate on the situation of the Crown in and over its Realms, then it remains 'original research', and thus the entire "One Crown or Several?" section is invalid. --gbambino 17:35, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Again, read what the article actually says. Which sentence of the article constitutes original research? Give me a specific example below. Your charge of original research is baseless if you cannot find any actual content in the article that fits that description. AndyL 17:53, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Stop with your inane arguments. The entire section "One Crown or Several?" is 'original research'. --gbambino 18:12, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Line by line

Ok, let's go through it line by line:

It is usually held that the Statute of Westminster, 1931 has resulted in what was formerly a single Crown of the United Kingdom uniting all the dominions giving way to a situation where the one Crown transcended Britain itself to become an institution which operated seperately but equally in each Commonwealth Realm, so that the Crown in Right of Australia or the Crown in Right of Canada is equal to the Crown in Right of the United Kingdom. (See the article Royal and Parliamentary Titles Act 1927 for a more thorough exploration of this concept.)

A statement of fact and not original research. If you disagree, explain how it is original research.

In 2003, an application by Tony O'Donohue to have struck down sections of the Act of Settlement that bar Roman Catholics from the Throne on the basis that they are in violation of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms was dismissed.

Again, a statement of fact.

In his decision, Justice Rouleau quoted former Prime Minister of Canada Louis St. Laurent who said:

"Her Majesty is now Queen of Canada but she is the Queen of Canada because she is Queen of the United Kingdom. . . It is not a separate office, .it is the sovereign who is recognized as the sovereign of the United Kingdom who is our Sovereign. . ." Hansard February 3, 1953, page 1566.

Again, a statement of fact.

Rouleau also desribed the relationship between Crown and Commonwelath Realm's as being one of "Union under the British Crown together with other Commonwealth countries". For more information see O’Donohue v. Her Majesty the Queen, 2003

Again, a statement of fact.

Do you dispute that any of the above is factually correct? If so, what?AndyL 21:42, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

None of the above is factually incorrect. However, whether or not your original source is correct has nothing to do with your trying to push 'original research' on this article and others. As stated on the page original research:

The phrase "original research" in this context refers to untested theories; data, statements, concepts and ideas that have not been published in a reputable publication; or any new interpretation, analysis, or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts or ideas that, in the words of Wikipedia's founder Jimbo Wales, would amount to a "novel narrative or historical interpretation".

Have any debates over the matter of "one Crown or many?" been published in a reputable publication? Or is the existance of a debate purely your own "untested theory", "new interpretation", etc.?

Original research is research that produces primary sources or secondary sources. Primary sources present information or data, such as archeological artifacts; photographs; historical documents such as a diary, census, transcript of a public hearing, trial, or interview; tabulated results of surveys or questionnaires, records of laboratory assays or observations; records of field observations. Secondary sources present a generalization, analysis, synthesis, interpretation, or evaluation of information or data.

You have provided only what amounts to a heavily edited ruling of a trial.

Original research that produces primary sources is not allowed. However, research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary and secondary sources is strongly encouraged. In fact, all articles on Wikipedia should be based on information collected from primary and secondary sources. This is called source-based research, and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia.

You have only produced a primary source: a heavily edited ruling of a trial. You have provided no secondary sources.

==What is excluded from articles==

A Wikipedia entry (including any part of an article) counts as original research if it proposes ideas, that is:

it introduces a theory or method of solution; or

You have introduced the theory that there is a debate on the status of the Crown in and over its Realms.

it introduces original ideas; or

Ditto

it defines new terms; or
it provides new definitions of old terms; or

You are trying to redefine the existing status of the Crown in and over its Realms by bringing it into doubt.

it introduces an original argument purporting to refute or support another idea, theory, argument, or position described in the article; or

Your argument that there is debate on the existing status of the Crown in and over its Realms is original, and purports to refute the existing status.

it introduces neologisms.

All of the above may be acceptable content once they have become a permanent feature of the public landscape. For example:

the ideas have been accepted for publication in a peer-reviewed journal; or
the ideas have become newsworthy: they have been independently reported in newspapers or news stories (such as the cold fusion story).

Any debate on the status of the Crown in and over its Realms is not "a permanent feature of the public landscape", has not "become newsworthy", nor is has it been "accepted for publication in a peer-recieved journal."

To ask the question "One Crown or Several?" states that there is debate surrounding the accepted status of the Crown in and over its Realms. To state there is such a debate is unsubstantiated, 'original research'. Therefore the question "One Crown or Several?" is your question, and yours alone, and thus does not belong anywhere on Wikipedia. --gbambino 23:35, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Mediation on Crown section

From [User talk: Stevertigo]]:; "Your comments within that paragraph in Commonwealth Realm#One Crown or Several?, the one which attempts to explain the relationship of the Crown over and in the Commonwealth Realms, are also directed at me. Though AndyL originally wrote that particular paragraph to contest its contents with his "Rouleau theories", it was I who last edited it in an attempt to clarify.

"That said, some of your comments are certainly valid, but the matter of the Crown over and in the Realms is complicated and difficult to put into words which are understandable to those not educated on the subject. Personally, I don't think any effort needs to be put into a re-write, as the section "One Crown or Several?" should be removed all-together. If you want to better understand the subject matter, what has been written in the second paragraph of Royal and Parliamentary Titles Act 1927 might give you a better explanation of the facts. --gbambino 22:37, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

I dont believe it is truly as complicated as you say. You assert that Andy L has a "republican bias," when all I see is an attempt to explain the controversy in Canada regarding the continued connection of Canada to the U.K. monarch. Its that simple. Explain that there have been recent attempts to interpret Canadian law according to a more distant relationship with the UK, and that Loyalists, (decendants of Loyalists run out of the U.S., as I understand) dont necessarily like that idea. This is a debate which needs to be represented, and the problem that you two both have in attempting to explain this debate is that youre too close to it, and you both assert different details to have superior value in characterising it.

You might say that the republican /independence movement is just a "fringe movement", and "not newsworthy", but this is not what NPOV policy says. NPOV policy is to represent all sides in a debate, and to represent the debate in proportion to its popular support and to its outside interest. Its interesting to hear (from an outside perspective) all the familiar political ins and outs as applied in a different country -- particularly with regard to rulership, soveriegnty, etc. Now, I criticised that paragraph for its writing, not its content. I could take a crack at rewriting it myself, if you both agree, but Id prefer if you both stepped back a bit, and looked at the basics, and explain those first, before citing particular Acts, etc. Given proper context, all the details are easy to understand. If the agenda is to obfuscate, all the details become obstacles to understanding. Sinreg, -SV|t 03:26, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

I think it would be quite useful if you tried your hand at rewriting the section in question. It would also be helpful if you dealt with Gbambino's misunderstanding of the concept of original research since he's not going to accept anything I say on the matter. AndyL 04:44, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

"Rise of Republicanism"

The sub-title "Rise of Republicanism" was based on nothing but POV and read like a republican call to arms. There have been republican sentiments in every Commonwealth Realm since they were first colonised, and though there continue to be those with republican leanings in the Realms, including the UK, there is nothing to prove there is a Commonwealth-wide rise in these feelings.

What's more, much of what was stated in the section exists almost verbatim in articles relating to republicanism within individual realms (ie. Republicanism in Australia, Canadian Republicanism and Monarchy in Canada/Debate on the monarchy -- these links have been included in the "Controversy" section. All other information was shifted down to the "Controversy" section, and some was moved to the more relevant Republicanism in Australia. Very little, if anything at all, was removed. --gbambino 15:54, 12 July 2005 (UTC)